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PostPosted: 13 Oct 2019, 03:55 
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Woodo wrote:
4 x 6c33c would look and sound impressive I expect.


It looked like this when completed with the Alpair7's.

I Wouldn't build with 6c33c again they are very expensive to run and the tubes are like cooker elements.
They heat the room like a convection heater. Not much different to something like SE 211 or 845.
NB the PYE- stream sounds very similar but with lower power.
_______________________________________________________

You say you are going to build lower power next time, why?
The OTL uses all triode right through and sounds good, but if I ask myself compared to the small PYE-stream (SE EL34,6L6,5881, KT66 yawn)
It can sound very similar at low to medium volumes which I find interesting considering there is no Transformer on an OTL.
I run electron stream, Ultra-linear, or pentode they sound very different in bass response.
My other small EL86 with EF86 driver is also very similar to the SE EL34 but not so loud, I use electron stream triode on the EF86.
So the EF86 is wired AKA Marantz 8 but with a diode mod.

I used PP with 8 X EL 34 in the past but I prefer SE now. Some big triodes can heat the room to much, which is also a problem with tube rectifiers.
Heat is a big problem with tube equipment if it makes the listening room like a Green house. Strange we never thought like that in the past 1960's on. _____________________________________________________

I guess its down to listening pref and what you use the equipment for, I use mine with films, music etc and it needs to play everything from orchestral to rock<<NB Pendulum etc.

So if you are looking at lower power is it because you want to stay triode output stage? (I'm not convinced its "that much" better) yes its different because triode SE is normally "warm" sounding (with a warm room :D ) but the driver stages on Triode output are a pig and you can hear this if you switch an EL34 to triode and hear the driver struggling to perform. In PP they can and do sound very good but there is "something" to me that seems lacking in ambient info. I'm no expert and there are many others that have great insight into listening sessions. If I can hear a singer open their mouth before singing or the change in a slider setting on a recording from the mixing desk then I'll be OK with it.
The shock to me is how much info is actually in a recording that you arn't aware of can be quite surprising just by changing something in a system.
NB its interesting to listen to different size speaker cones and how the "speed" of the music response seems to change. The bigger the cone the more air it has to move, how fast can it move? My wife noticed it and said the music tempo seems slower, I must be imagining it.

:D << have a listen to a KRELL amp driving some maggies and you get the idea.

Regards
M. Gregg


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PostPosted: 13 Oct 2019, 04:20 
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Here is something to think about,

When I mentioned what a shock it is to hear the amount of info on a recording that you can't hear or are not aware of.
Remember the recording was recorded and produced on equipment which is (not audiophile)<<think about it.
But we can't hear it on our equipment (but its there) why?
Whats going on? but change a capacitor and bam! where did that come from?
Its this that makes people so nuts a simple example the talking under the music tracks on Dark side of the moon.
"Ive always been mad like most of us are" and how in the past you turned it up to try and hear what was being said.
Listen on a good set up<< Krell maggies etc and its there no straining or what was that etc.
Its a PITA :confused:
Its interesting to also note that the front end is actually producing this information ie "the cd player you bought" from a standard set up using standard parts but the system is not capable of reproducing it. If you change a capacitor in a power amp etc and it reveals information in the music the front end of the system hasn't changed the info has always been there on the LP or CD of Dark side of the moon from its original recording all those years ago. But the studio recorded it on the old equipment with old capacitors and circuit boards.

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M. Gregg

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PostPosted: 13 Oct 2019, 05:08 
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Here is an interesting link,

Dark Side of the moon,
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=almdxI76DOw

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M. Gregg

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PostPosted: 13 Oct 2019, 17:04 
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Over the years I've had a supposed master version, normal vinyl, cd and cd rip into ALAC of the dark side of the moon. I still have a WAV copy my dad did for me from the master version. I just listen to the ALAC copy from the standard CD now but I reckon the original $10 vinyl was the best. The master version obviously was nicer material and some of the background voices were more forward but overall was probably not worth 3 times the price. Once my cousin AB'd his turntable and cd player while playing crime of the century. At the time early 80s he also had a krell and big b & w speakers. He and his girlfriend were adamant the lp version sounded better. It likely was but I either couldn't hear it or I am not very good at AB tests. I was working at a loud newspaper printing plant at the time so my hearing may have already been affected. I know little about electronics especially the different valves so rely basically on what I read here. With the 300b for my first amp I was probably ambitious and ignorant starting with an expensive tube. I thought I might build a lower power amp before I embark on something more adventurous. The hoj's and mwhouston's write up and evaluation of their 6as7's were interesting so I thought I might head in that direction. The tubes are more affordable too. I have no particular preference for topology at this stage as I haven't heard the differences yet. I still enjoy my class d amp too whatever that topology is but often can't wait to change back the the valve amp.

I recall watching the linked YouTube video some time back. The results were interesting.

I once owned a Aiwa cassette deck touted
as being as good as a nakamichi in the sales pitch. I even had to put that on credit so the nakamichi was out of the question. It's a shame both have gone the way they have. Although I don't know what I would do with one now.

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PostPosted: 13 Oct 2019, 22:04 
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Continuing, I may have raised a post on my rendition of suncalc' circuit of the wide band 300b that I couldn't hear some cymbals having an unusual (for me) sound on Amazing Rhythm Aces "too stuffed to jump" album. Also on Steely Dans song Aja there is a sound probably a high pitched synthesiser that used to be there. Well it's not there on any of my amps either. I suspect my 60 odd years old audio detectors losing sensitivity. I am probably a bad judge of audio quality nowadays if that makes sense. I'm sure in a blind test I would get it wrong.

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PostPosted: 14 Oct 2019, 13:50 
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Quote:
Once my cousin AB'd his turntable and cd player while playing crime of the century


An interesting album crime of the century,
Rudy comes to mind and dreamer, another blast from the past Nightingales and bombers Manfred mann.
Am getting nostalgic :D
A two man lift for a Krell amp driven by a counterpoint dac :D
There comes a point when you can't tell the difference between equipment, but its not until you take it home and after a couple of hours the fantastic equipment loses its shine. I remember in HIFI conventions listening to about 70 systems and looking at stripped equipment until I couldn't tell which was which anymore. Or remember what sounded good etc.
Do you remember the half speed master records? Rumour has it that it was a "get out" from a company that the new machines they bought the wow and flutter was so bad they had to master at half speed and created the half speed master. Be that as it may or not its interesting to wonder how much is done to sell.
Yes I would say that my original LP and CD of DSM sound pretty good to me, I'm not convinced with SACD perhaps someone can say more about it.
So what do you think draws you from the D amp back to valves/tubes?

Regards
M. Gregg

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PostPosted: 14 Oct 2019, 22:45 
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When I had a turntable I got a few master recordings and direct to disk. Not sure I ever bought any half speed ones, I'll check the cover of my Pink Floyd album-still have my old ones in a box in case I manage to find a decent turntable I like, preferably an old one. Some are ordinary of course but a few ones I loved were Kevin borich and Dutch tilders, a local blues/rock band - KB is still playing at 70 odd years old, Thelma Houston and the pressure cooker and Harry James King James Version all of which have been converted to "bits". Some songs have quite good dynamics, like being there.

The class d pioneer sc1223 - I don't really know whether it's a good one. It's capable for 7.2 surround sound and was useful for bluray DVD movies with good sound. I found the stereo and 5.1 really useful for music as well. I have kraftwerks man-macine live concert series from about 2005 which can be played in stereo or 5.1. I wish I could have seen them live. However for stereo it seems or I imagine it to be clinical and other times it doesn't bother me. I may have been biased from everything I have read about them. The power seems bottomless and the bass accurate, no serious complaints with mids or higher freq.

A guy came to my house to listen to my tannoy 611's when they were up for sale. He didn't stay long as he couldn't stand the sound! He didn't think it was the speakers as he had heard them before elsewhere. The sound of the valve amp seems fuller more rounded - musical if you like. Hopefully it's more than just distortion. The first time I played the pcb version of the 300b I thought there were sounds I hadn't noticed before. The point to point version has improved on that a lot. But when you go back to the transistor amp the sounds are there. Maybe the mind is being tricked. Things like that I just say well they're different and leave it at that.

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PostPosted: 15 Oct 2019, 06:08 
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master disk blurb in the album cover. btw, the manfred mann album seem quite well produced. enjoyed the few tracks sampled and will investigate further. the process mention “half-speed mastering” . hope it’s not to cover a fault :xfingers: and your 6c33c amp and matching speakers look great. another piece of diy to be proud of. worth the power drawn and heat produced.


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PostPosted: 25 Oct 2019, 11:35 
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You know,

I'm just listening to some old disco music using the PYE-stream/M7and it reminds me of the Velleman 8XEL34 driving Epos 14's obviously not as loud :D . Interestingly when I used Tannoy 611's there seemed to be to much of everything however I remember listening to the larger version of Epos can't remember the number, fed by a Chord pre/power combination and I hated it. :confused: The chord was stark and in your face, you could have cut glass with the treble.

Now they say tube amps are overly warm (2nd harmonic) etc. However I find you can "voice" an amp without much effort.
In the past Naim Equipment made an impression on me being believable, its the you are there situation, if it be in a disco or a concert.

So where to go from there, well as someone once said to me real deep bass is ponderous. My guess is that its getting the timing between the speakers to match each other. If the speaker cones are moving at different speeds your going to get smear in the sound stage.
NB there is a difference in bass quality ie thump, thump, or hearing the bass guitar strings.

Of course in a concert live event it doesn't hit you so much because its the sound at the time ie it is what it is. The sound at the time.
I learned a lot when I played with a few bands for fun, standing in front of a full drum kit or a bass amp using an Ampeg SVT its a real wake up call. And reminds me of bass from 611'S but they still pale in comparison. :D

NB a lot of amp techs got zapped servicing SVT amps because the stored energy in the PSU was so high instantaneous shock if not discharged was a problem. So rumour has it!

Regards
M. Gregg

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Last edited by M. Gregg on 25 Oct 2019, 14:40, edited 3 times in total.

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PostPosted: 27 Oct 2019, 06:12 
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I’ll have to read up on pye stream as I am still ahem acquiring knowledge. Good live concerts have a totally different and amazing sound. if it were possible to recreate those dynamic in the home...i suppose the police would be visiting more often.. From my youth a guitarist I liked back then who is a new zealander but lives up on the sunshine coast now (couple of hours away from me) played a concert at a local yacht club recently. he’s still going strong at 70 something although his band members are a little younger including sometimes his son on the drums. He is great live but unfortunately his albums are less impressive but still enjoy them when in the mood.

https://www.kevinborich.com.au/

My late hifi friend sold me his 611s in the late 80s and were near new. as he played orchestral music and was in the process of buying huge electrostatic speakers from the US I took them off his hands. at the time i had the chris rogers pro9tl which I loved too. only sold both in recent years.

Interesting design the 611s. i think maybe the sound wasn’t bad, I thought the bass could have been better. maybe the concentric midrange/tweeter didn’t quite work out. sure look nice.

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