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 Post subject: Duelund wire
PostPosted: 26 Jun 2018, 11:41 
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Just a quick comment for interest,

Duelund wire a copy of the old WE16GA (new version of old wire).

There was a lot of talk about this wire here:
https://positive-feedback.com/audio-dis ... es-part-1/
Curiosity took hold so I thought what would happen if I used a meter of this wire cut to make leads inside a tube amp from output transformers to speaker terminals. It has an interesting change to clarity bearing in mind its just a short piece used inside the amp.
I tried the smaller size first then the larger to hear the difference.

I thought it might be interesting to some people.

Regards
M. Gregg


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 Post subject: Re: Duelund wire
PostPosted: 27 Jun 2018, 06:23 
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NB I have no link to Duelund products.

As expected the thinner the wire cross section the very low bass is not so prominent.
However I was very surprised at the change in sound.
But this was not exactly as expected The 2.5mm speaker wire is warmer sounding and quite revealing across the audio band.
The smaller cross sections give clarity to mid band and can be quite a surprise at first listen.

Obviously the smaller the cross section then tends to highlight higher frequencies, not that surprising after noticing the same changes on interconnects. The most surprising thing is again we are talking short lengths between speaker terminal on the amplifier and the output transformer. Its always a YMMV but interesting none the less.

Many will just think a small difference but it isn't, its as much as a coupling capacitor change.

What I would mention is strip the insulation using a sharp knife "carefully" or you will break the wire strands. Also the only way to get the 2.5mm through the transformer ring tags is put it through without tinning then solder or you won't get it through. :) .
Its interesting to note that the "Warmth" of sound is linked mainly to the 2.5mm the smaller size tends to give the amp a more focused image. With a size down in wire the bass is still there its just not so warm sounding "strange".
So does it make a difference unfortunately yes :D .

NB I used a small band of heat shrink on the end of each lead close to the end of the insulation it gives +/- indication (red/black) but it also ensures the cotton insulation cant unwind over the years. So the heat shrink is just a 4mm band over the insulation not in contact with the conductor.

Regards
M. Gregg


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 Post subject: Re: Duelund wire
PostPosted: 30 Jun 2018, 04:34 
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So looking back at the outcome,

The 2.5mm speaker cable is warmer sounding slightly less imaging than the smaller size wires.

If you go to small you lose some bass but gain more mid range and higher frequencies.

To be honest the more I try things out the more I now realise the "old" valve sound isn't really the sound from valves.
Its 90% of everything else and its cumulative. Its all the "other" stuff that gives a small change added together obviously known as synergy in the HIFI world.

Here is the PITA bit:
This "synergy" is cumulative in both directions, ie using sharp sounding metal films and polypropylene or using components revealing high frequencies will give imaging at the expense of spit and shrill sounds. The eye opener for me is "wire" the changes I have heard recently have made me realize. The best description of the sound changes with this wire are: remember the old "valve" record player warm sound playing 78 jazz records etc. Well the size of wire lets you choose the amount of this warm effect that is very revealing in the mid band of recordings. So there is a choice of focused image between the speakers with the smaller cross section or much warmer sound with the larger cross section. You can add to this with things like Allen Bradley resistors choice of components etc. This now makes sense to me on the choke wiring I tried earlier.

But stop for a moment and ask, what is happening to give these changes? :confused: :|

It might be of interest to some.

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M. Gregg

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 Post subject: Re: Duelund wire
PostPosted: 30 Jun 2018, 05:00 
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To add to the last post,

The effect on the imaging between speakers on the different cross sections is quite surprising.
So don't get confused with the warm sound think fuller sound also the change can be an almost etched image.
So it can be a real surprise. Again YMMV :)

Just for interest one other thing that surprised me is, after fitting this wire the differences between music sources stood out.
This fuller sound was more prominent in better sources of music reproduction. (perhaps this is a clue) I don't know.

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M. Gregg

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 Post subject: Re: Duelund wire
PostPosted: 30 Jun 2018, 05:51 
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:D.

Just for fun.
Years ago in the 70's I found that using silver inside equipment between different PCB's for signal, doing wire changes that by using different cross sections of silver to make a single interconnect core I seemed to be able to select frequencies that were lifted or reduced which seemed nuts at the time (frequency dependant) must be imagination. Also silver plated copper effecting high frequency response. And yet again we have tin plated multi-strand and different insulation giving an effect. Take from it what you will but there is no "Skin" effect in audio the frequencies are to low, but this plating is on the outside of a wire. just a few thoughts to dismiss for fun.
I had an edgy sound on some equipment and after trying this wire I thought I wonder if its the silver plated wire on the grounding so I changed it to solid silver (edgy sound gone). But it is what it is just a bit of fun.

I suppose you could argue that copper caps and tin foil caps don't sound different but lets not go there because I think they do.

I am listening to "The Who" at the moment and I have the Duelund 2.5 in the amp at the moment and a reflection on the sound is it reminds me of listening to some old stereograms but in a good way. Lots of detail and imaging, I think this has answered my question why can't I get the satisfaction that you could get years ago. Even better when turned up.

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M. Gregg

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 Post subject: Re: Duelund wire
PostPosted: 02 Jul 2018, 04:18 
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Just an update,

I noticed in the article they used the small gauge wire for signal (interconnects).
So after changing wire on my small EL84 SE from plated to silver I thought its worth a small test.

I have silver on the incomming to the volume pot and from the pot to the EF86 input.

I changed the silver used on the ground connection from the pot to the amplifier main ground bus to DCA20GA.

This is a piece of wire about 10cm long. The whole sound stage opened up.

Why? I have no idea but I thought it was worth posting.

NB there is a lot of talk about skin effect at 50hz in the power distribution industry but I'll leave it at that.

I must admit I was sceptical after reading the constant rant about Western Electric wire, but as someone once said to me "don't knock it till youve tried it". So if its imaging that your looking for the smaller cross section is better than the 2.5mm. So the DCA16GA is the main one but the smaller sizes seem to have an impact on signal. You can wire quite a lot within an amplifier with just a meter length, I'm also looking at sleeving some and trying other things because of voltage rating.

Regards
M. Gregg

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 Post subject: Re: Duelund wire
PostPosted: 07 Jul 2018, 06:00 
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The difference between the Duelund wire and Western Electric,

Its obvious that the western electric wire has a plastic inner insulation designed for higher voltages,
so you can't sleeve the oil impregnated insulation and would have to remove it for higher voltages and PTFE sleeve.
But its a night and day difference on internal output Tx to speaker posts inside amps and signal wire grounding.

It gives a more rendered sound (layered with detail) and can give a close sound to the "old sound" associated with old tube gear.

There seems to be an interaction between internal grounding wire and the Duelund CSA wire type, and this interaction can seem like a frequency filter. Sounds nuts doesn't it :D but you can tune the sound and the difference is a real eye opener.
Its interesting to find that silver plated wire can sound harsh by comparison in the HF a bit like bad metal film resistors.
The more I experiment the more I'm learning like tinned copper solid core works well in certain areas where your carrying current and need to sleeve with PTFE.
And YMMV :D

Regards
M. Gregg


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 Post subject: Re: Duelund wire
PostPosted: 21 Jul 2018, 04:19 
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Just an update,

I have tried using the Duelund wire on the B+ by removing the cotton insulation and using PTFE sleeve.
Due to the insulation requirements of the B+.

There is no two ways about it, there is a change in the music information from the equipment.
I'm going to try making a couple of interconnects (twisted pair) between my preamp and power amp (for fun) using the 16 gauge.
The change with the duelund wire is initially quite strange, then you notice things like tambourines in the background that were masked in the music. Initial thoughts were I'm picking up RFI because I didn't remember any of the content in the background before so I removed the wire. Then a realisation I was hearing information in the music, so I put it back in and yes its information in the music. There is initially a harshness that comes with this information so I'm going to keep slowly replacing the wire in the system and see/hear what happens. YMMV :D
I'm using Oyaide SS-47 solder.
I have thought about trying carbon fibre but there are a few issues to resolve.

Regards
M. Gregg

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 Post subject: Re: Duelund wire
PostPosted: 21 Jul 2018, 08:57 
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Another update,

In reference to the harshness.
It seems that the Duelund wire is actually showing up the other wire within the amp, mainly silver plated PTFE.
So as I change out the other wire it just gets more transparent. (strange)

Regards
M. Gregg

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 Post subject: Re: Duelund wire
PostPosted: 24 Jul 2018, 03:45 
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Just got the 16 gauge,

So I can start building the interconnects.

Regards
M. Gregg


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