DIY Audio Projects Forum
 NEW  Matt presents bias and operation data for the 6V6 tube in SE operation - 6V6 Single-Ended (SE) Ultra Linear (UL) Bias Optimization.

DIY Audio Projects Forum

Welcome to the DIY Audio Projects Message Forum. Use these forums to discuss Hi-Fi audio and to share your DIY Audio Projects. Registration is free and required to post messages and view the file attachments. Registration will only take a minute and registered users do not see any advertisements. After you have completed the online registration process, check your email (including spam/junk folder) for the verification email to activate your account. New members are under moderation - so your posts will not be visible until approved by a moderator. See the Read Me 1st, Forum RULES and Forum FAQ to get started on the forum.

It is currently 20 Apr 2018, 07:29

All times are UTC - 6 hours [ DST ]




Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 18 posts ]  Go to page 1, 2  Next
Author Message
PostPosted: 15 Nov 2017, 21:06 
Offline
Project Author
User avatar

Joined: 06 Apr 2009, 10:08
Posts: 1419
Location: US Pacific Northwest
There has been a lot of discussion on the forums concerning the fact that, in vacuum tube amps, the Hammond power transformers seem to run fairly warm. After listening to much speculation and anecdotal evidence, I finally decided to put the question directly to Hammond. And today I got a very polite and informative response to my inquiry.

First things first. From a thermal perspective, transformers are rated by their insulation temperature rating. These ratings are:
Class A: 105°C (221°F)
Class B: 150°C (302°F)
Class F: 180°C (356°F)
Class N: 200°C (392°F)
Class H: 220°C (428°F)
This is the maximum temperature that is allowed in any part of the transformer.

Using this insulation rating, assumptions and allowances are made to determine how much the temperature of the transformer may increase over ambient before the insulation is compromised (i.e thermal failure occurs). This is done according to the following relation:

T-rating = T-ambient + T-rise + T-hotspot

Now the assumptions are generally for an ambient environmental temperature of 40°C (104°F) and a hot spot allowance of 10°C (18°F). The Hammond "Classic" series (i.e. tube amp) transformers and chokes are all Class A, 105°C (221°F), rated. This means that with the assumptions above, the allowable temperate rise over ambient in the design is 55°C (99°F) (i.e. 105 - 10 - 40 = 55°C (99°F)).

So what this means is that if you are operating the transformer in a 25°C (77°F) environment, the maximum internal temperature of the transformer can go as high as 80°C (176°F) (25°C + 55°C = 80°C). Now the external temperature of the transformer will be lower than the internal temperature. How much is dependent on the thermal resistivity of the assembly. But seeing as how they are made of steel (i.e. a good thermal conductor), the thermal resistivity between the maximum internal temperature and the external temperature should not be that large. If one were to assume that the delta between maximum internal temperature and case temperature was 20°C (this is a very conservative estimate), then this would mean that it would be reasonable to see a case temperature of 60°C (140°F) at full load in a 25°C (77°F) environment and a case temperature of 85°C (185°F) in a 40°C (104°F) ambient environment. And none of these conditions would be out of specification for the transformer.

Just for the record, 60°C (140°F) is very warm to the touch. This is hot enough to scald or produce mild burns. And 85°C (185°F) will cause severe burns. For reference, 65°C (150°F) water can cause 3rd degree burns in only 2 seconds.

In my designs using Hammond transformers, I have not measured a case temperature higher than about 55°C (131°F) in a 25°C (77°F) environment. So while the case may have felt "hot" to the touch, in reality this was well within the specifications of the transformer.

So what does all this mean? I would say first, stop worrying about the temperature of the Hammond transformers. They are operating within specifications and should give good performance across their lifetimes. Second, even though here may be some other transformers that run "cooler" to the touch, that does not necessarily make them "better" than the Hammond units.

I hope that this information helps to put people's minds at ease. Your transformers are fine; enjoy your amps.

_________________
Matt
It's all about the Glass!
http://www.CascadeTubes.com
Cascade Tubes Blog


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: 15 Nov 2017, 23:59 
Offline
Project Author
User avatar

Joined: 06 Jun 2008, 18:23
Posts: 4865
Location: Australia
I'll try once more to measure the temp at the top of the tranni but last time I tried I got a reading of 40C about 100F well within range. I can just hold a few fingers on it for about one or two seconds.
Hard to believe I have stopped worrying but will try for another measurement.

Thanks for the info Matt.

_________________
Projects: "Sanctum" - 12AU7 and 6AS7 direct coupled headphone amp | "retro-Oatley 6J6" - 6J6 push-pull headphone amp with OPTs | "retro-Hiraga" - Jean Hiraga Le Monster
Website: retro-thermionic


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: 16 Nov 2017, 00:38 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: 08 Aug 2009, 03:11
Posts: 2195
Location: Chilliwack, BC
Thank you Matt for your efforts and the information :D

_________________
-= Gregg =-
* Ratings are for transistors - tubes have guidelines*
Home: GeeK ZonE
Work: Classic Valve Design


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: 16 Nov 2017, 15:58 
Offline
Project Author
User avatar

Joined: 04 Jun 2008, 20:59
Posts: 3604
Location: Arizona, USA
Hi, Good info. In some of my various designs I have measured (spot) temperatures as much as 175F (about 80C). Still comfortably below the least of the specs. This was only after long periods of use. I find if you use good brands and keep the loading below about 75% of the ratings you will usually be fine. 50% is even better.

Good listening
Bruce

_________________
Some of my DIY Tube Amplifier Projects:


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: 16 Nov 2017, 16:54 
Offline
Project Author
User avatar

Joined: 06 Jun 2008, 18:23
Posts: 4865
Location: Australia
My best efforts to read the temp of the little HP amp at least agree - 40C about 100F. Therefore not worried.

_________________
Projects: "Sanctum" - 12AU7 and 6AS7 direct coupled headphone amp | "retro-Oatley 6J6" - 6J6 push-pull headphone amp with OPTs | "retro-Hiraga" - Jean Hiraga Le Monster
Website: retro-thermionic


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: 17 Dec 2017, 16:21 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: 01 Jun 2013, 09:05
Posts: 601
It still doesn't change the fact,

That Edcor can make mains Tx's that do the same job and you can't fry an egg on them.
I don't see the point of such heat in small mains transformers.
How efficient are Hammond Tx's? heat is energy-loss.

I struggle to think of another transformer manufacturer that uses these temps as acceptable.
Just my opinion, that Hammond should re-think their design strategy.
But who am I to make waves.. :smoking:

Its bad for electrolytic caps and semiconductors in enclosures.
It would never be acceptable in industrial equipment.
Each to their own I guess.

Regards
M. Gregg

_________________
What is the sound of one hand clapping?


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: 17 Dec 2017, 19:05 
Offline
Project Author
User avatar

Joined: 06 Jun 2008, 18:23
Posts: 4865
Location: Australia
M. Gregg wrote:
It still doesn't change the fact,

That Edcor can make mains Tx's that do the same job and you can't fry an egg on them.
I don't see the point of such heat in small mains transformers.
How efficient are Hammond Tx's? heat is energy-loss.

I struggle to think of another transformer manufacturer that uses these temps as acceptable.
Just my opinion, that Hammond should re-think their design strategy.
But who am I to make waves.. :smoking:

Its bad for electrolytic caps and semiconductors in enclosures.
It would never be acceptable in industrial equipment.
Each to their own I guess.

Regards
M. Gregg

Agree. There is no reason the trannies should run that hot. Buying Edcors for me is a pain. I get Hammond from interstate so a lot easier.

_________________
Projects: "Sanctum" - 12AU7 and 6AS7 direct coupled headphone amp | "retro-Oatley 6J6" - 6J6 push-pull headphone amp with OPTs | "retro-Hiraga" - Jean Hiraga Le Monster
Website: retro-thermionic


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: 17 Dec 2017, 19:43 
Offline
Project Author
User avatar

Joined: 06 Apr 2009, 10:08
Posts: 1419
Location: US Pacific Northwest
M. Gregg wrote:
It would never be acceptable in industrial equipment.
I'm not sure I can agree. Yes the Hammonds run hotter than the Edcors (and many others) but their temperatures are not that extreme. I have an old Hallicrafters S-53A shortwave receiver (http://www.shortwaveradio.ch/radio-e/ha ... s53a-e.htm) and the tube compartment and power transformer on that thing you really could fry an egg on.

And remember that Hammond is designing to accepted industrial standards.

_________________
Matt
It's all about the Glass!
http://www.CascadeTubes.com
Cascade Tubes Blog


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: 18 Dec 2017, 14:28 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: 01 Jun 2013, 09:05
Posts: 601
Quote:
And remember that Hammond is designing to accepted industrial standards.


Perhaps its because years ago cheap Chinese TX's ran very hot and tended to have a thermal fuse embedded into the primary winding.
This inevitably blew after about a year and the Tx's always had a hot insulation roasting smell.

The equipment I worked with was on 24/7 for maybe 10 years at a time, we had very few Tx failures but none ran as hot as Hammond.
If one did run hot we immediately investigated loading currents or changed it. (Down time was way more expensive than a new TX)
If I compare to RS or Farnell transformers or most decent Toroid (run cool) I still am not a fan of hot Tx's.

I guess the question is why design to such high running temps? It doesn't make a lot of sense to me.
Is it cheaper to produce? Or what's different I assume Hammond make cool running Tx's, is it iron losses?
The Hammonds I have used seem to have a higher stray magnetic field, but perhaps that is not typical.

NB its still nice to know they are within spec.
Xmas wish>>hammonds run cooler. :D
I am told that the higher (more expensive) range tends to be quieter and cooler but to be honest I wish there were more makers producing, but tube voltages tend to be one of those difficult things to get. Its a PITA really trying to get cool, quiet, correct voltage etc even more difficult if you run tube rectifiers. Perhaps its trying to not have to go bespoke design and cost routes.

Regards
M. Gregg

_________________
What is the sound of one hand clapping?


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: 26 Dec 2017, 07:09 
Offline
Project Author
User avatar

Joined: 06 Jun 2008, 18:23
Posts: 4865
Location: Australia
The second build of the simple headphone amp runs with a cooler tranni. Same tranni same build but tranni is noticable cooler. All I can think of is the limiting resistors before the diodes, direct from the tranni secondaries, are larger. 270 from 220ohms.

_________________
Projects: "Sanctum" - 12AU7 and 6AS7 direct coupled headphone amp | "retro-Oatley 6J6" - 6J6 push-pull headphone amp with OPTs | "retro-Hiraga" - Jean Hiraga Le Monster
Website: retro-thermionic


Top
 Profile  
 
Display posts from previous:  Sort by  
Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 18 posts ]  Go to page 1, 2  Next

All times are UTC - 6 hours [ DST ]


Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 6 guests


You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot post attachments in this forum

Jump to:  
DIY Tube Projects :: DIY Tube Amp Kits :: DIY Speaker Projects :: DIY Solid State Projects :: DIY IC / Op-amp Projects :: DIY Phono Projects :: DIY Cable Projects :: Hi-Fi Audio Schematics
© diyAudioProjects.com - Terms of Service - Privacy Policy