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 Post subject: Re: bi wiring ??
PostPosted: 27 May 2016, 12:51 
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Joined: 09 Oct 2012, 19:43
Posts: 241
Location: Vancouver Canada
When it comes to cable, the facts and the science providing them is proven knowledge. But it all boils down to what the brain perceives and how we relate to that perception. A person listening to the same system for long periods, after a time, could and probably would hear a difference however slight in even the changing of a new RCA jack is possible. That same person however, if not knowing of the change could, would, or could never, tell the difference. (please pick one of the three or include your own). I run a tri-amp system 60w/clAB, 24w/clA, 8 w/clA. Got !/2" dia 14awg OFC cable 3' long from amp to spkr beside it, 16awg for the mids and 18awg for the tweets. Built in electronic X-over in the pre-amp. Used selected caps and res threw-out the build. It sounds fantastic.
The system i love and listen to every day. 2 70's something spkrs 10" bass, 4" tweet, one cap for x-over so the tweeter doesn't evaporate from trying to reproduce 20Hz drum beet, with 18awg zip-cond driven by an old Akai. Should i be worried?


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 Post subject: Re: bi wiring ??
PostPosted: 27 May 2016, 13:46 
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Joined: 09 Oct 2012, 19:43
Posts: 241
Location: Vancouver Canada
And, and, when i built that system i started out using one stereo 60w/clAB to drive the 70's spkr and i preferred that to the full blown version having individual components for each stage from source to spkr. I do admit, i prefer the tube sound to SS though. Maybe there is hope for me yet.
I did an experiment using wire wrap 36awg i think. 3ft long against 12awg OFC. from spkr to amp. 60w, couldn't tell the difference. Sounded the same, sounded as loud. The wire was a tad warmish though.
It is very educational to try different things. Lamp cord 18awg stranded, house wire 14awg/12awg solid, car booster cables 6awg, and stripped down printer cable 26/28awg. You will soon be the wiser. Just listen to each for long enough period of time to decide.
Great discussion.


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 Post subject: Re: bi wiring ??
PostPosted: 28 May 2016, 03:10 
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Joined: 01 Jun 2013, 09:05
Posts: 555
There is a problem with the cable ideas,

Most people forget that they are changing cables between the equipment and the amp.
However what about the cable in the equipment?

There is no doubt in my mind that current delivery/cable cross section had a major impact when I built the OTL.
I tried different wires in the PSU and different placing of capacitors.

I do like house wire solid core when trying to get connections between a driver stage and speaker output connections.
I will use stranded silver plated cable as well if it needs to be flexible.

There is no doubt that there is a psycho acoustic impact and we are easily fooled.
It's back to the saying that all HIFI should sound the same if it only produces the source signal. (Its hard to disagree)
So all HIFI is rubbish because it all sounds different (but does it?) or is it level of detail?

If magnepan can produce such detail, it must be in the signal so why does hifi sound different?
There is no doubt in my mind that some of the old equipment could sound very realistic<<not Tandy. :D
And there is a new wave in the background searching for real sound and replacements for the old Black Cat caps etc etc.

Where is the line between a satisfying system and a HIFI system? The two should be the same right?
However quite often I am left out in the cold. I have said this before after listening to so many systems in a London HIFI show my head was ringing. I walked into a room with some old PYE equipment and instantly I wanted a PYE amp.
The sudden relaxation and the relief of everything not being "In your face" was a revelation.
I have some old audio books that state in 1950 (Its quite easy to produce a sound that is indistinguishable from a person speaking in a room)
You know, I have heard that sound about six times in total in 30+ years. When I actually stood outside a room and thought we had a visitor but it was the HIFI. I have also heard it in a few demonstrations. One such system made a small room sound like a church with a pipe organ playing but it wasn't cheap. If you closed your eyes you were shocked when you opened them to find the room had got very much smaller such was the ambience produced. The bass was down to sub bass levels and it wasn't thump thump if you have ever sat in a church and actually listened to a pipe organ and the sound seems to shake you inside. I don't like church music particularly I'm happy with anything even modern and old underworld. However how many people have actually sat in a park and listened I mean actually listened to a band and close your eyes and pretend its a HIFI then go home and compare at your peril. LOL

Years ago I remember listening to dark side of the moon and struggling to hear the voices in the back ground. You know there is so much more there but its not until you hear it and then remember its the same CD so what's wrong? Where did that tambourine come from where have those rhythm sticks come from etc has someone changed the CD for a remaster...but no its the same one.

There is a saying "the devil is in the detail". Perhaps its not what you can hear that matters but rather what you can't hear that matters.

Regards
M. Gregg

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 Post subject: Re: bi wiring ??
PostPosted: 01 Aug 2016, 09:07 
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Joined: 28 May 2008, 21:53
Posts: 4503
Location: Winnipeg, CANADA
laurie54 wrote:
I did an experiment using wire wrap 36awg i think. 3ft long against 12awg OFC. from spkr to amp. \

I like the high gauge wire trick. Essentially you are adding some additional resistance to the net load the amplifier sees. The added resistance can help lift the bottom end of a low Q speaker system such as a high sensitivity single driver horn.

For my biamped system I use a simple 14AWG strand OFC.

Cheers

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 Post subject: Re: bi wiring ??
PostPosted: 05 Aug 2016, 15:04 
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Joined: 05 Aug 2016, 14:35
Posts: 214
zuhayr94 wrote:
hi all.
to start off. this is my fist post so be lenient :P
the first question i want to ask is that, can i bi-wire a cambridge audio a1 mk3 special edition amp ? i got it as a debt from a friend so i dont really know much about it. i want to make a pair of floorstanding speakers in the future so im thinking of buying all the bits slowly. im thinking to make then around 45" high (give and take) with a 6" woofer, a midrange and a tweeter. or two woofers and a tweeter. im looking at peerless woofers as theyre pretty cheap because it will be my first proper project but that not my question.
can i bi-wire the cambridge audio. or do i even need to bi wire it ??
i also have a technics ch7 system (needs fixing) and a technics sa-GX470 (wouldnt mind using them if i must) ive just read around and got that bi wiring is better for sound and clarity. i will be using the best cables i can find. probably power cables 100% ofc copper with a thick core but i dont know yet.

(I WILL BE MAKING SPEAKER STANDS AND A HEADPHONE STAND ALSO SO I MAY MAKE A THREAD AND POST STEP BY STEP PICS ON HOW I DID IT IF ANYONE WANTS, IT WILL BE NICE TO HAVE YOUR OPINIONS)

untill then ANY REPLIES WILL BE APPRECIATED.
THANKS ALL IN ADVANCE !!
:)


OK - let's try to distill all of what has been written to-date:

a) Bi-Wiring is simply doubling the number of conductors between the amplifier and the speakers. With the most basic assumption that the first single pair of conductors is adequate, there will be no discernible or measurable difference. However, if you have, for instance, 24 gauge wire running from a 100+ Watt amp more than 30 feet to the speaker, bi-wiring will make a definite difference.

b) Bi-Amping is an altogether different animal. In this case, two (or more) amplifiers are used for each speaker, each handling one range, for instance, treble and bass, treble, mid and bass, treble, bass and mid - and so forth. In this case, assuming identical amps, one is doubling the amount of power available to each speaker, meaning that the increased headroom will (possibly) reduce clipping (given that power must increase geometrically for volume to increase in linear fashion, doubling power = "not much" volume increase). This can be a two-edged sword depending on how the speaker crossovers are designed and whether they will still do their job if the speaker is bi-amped. Suffice it to say that *most* speakers (but emphatically not all) that have bi-amp capacity have addressed this issue and the crossovers remain active. There are discernible benefits to this option, primarily around the edges. Example: I keep two Dynaco ST120s, heavily modified. If I bi-amp them into my AR3as, I get almost as good a performance as from my also-modified Citation 19. A lot of work, however, for a limited return.

Cutting to the chase, purchase speaker wire of sufficient gauge to handle the anticipated power and distances involved. Writing, again for myself, I use 12-gauge thin-strand THHN wire, chucked and spun on a drill as speaker wire. It is thin, takes tremendous abuse and can be pulled around corners and through crawl-spaces without damage. 12-gauge wire will easily handle up to 300 watts and 40' without any audible losses whatsoever. Cheap, too. With that in mind, bi-wiring would be silly.

Note also that rusty coat-hangers will do equally well for a couple of feet. Don't believe me? Try it with your most golden-eared friend.

Take your time with this hobby. It can be a great deal of fun if you avoid the snake-oil and revealed religious aspects of it. Keep in mind that after a certain basic level of manufacturing and material quality, going further has no value other than for status. Boutique gear, parts, wire, interconnects and such fit into this category - once past those initial stages, more is emphatically NOT better.


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