DIY Audio Projects Forum
http://diyaudioprojects.com/Forum/

Vinyl - the good and the bad
http://diyaudioprojects.com/Forum/viewtopic.php?f=12&t=1914
Page 6 of 6

Author:  sampleaccurate [ 07 May 2010, 09:59 ]
Post subject:  Re: Vinyl - the good and the bad

booangler wrote:
sampleaccurate wrote:
Although LPs definitely CAN sound better than CDs, many do not, especially on the inner tracks. Again, perhaps my cartridge or alignment is at fault, but the outer tracks on many albums have pristine detail in the highs and no perceptible distortion. The inner tracks are distorted on all my albums - every last one.

This should not be the case at all. Your setup has to be way off. Try a Mobile Fidelity Sound Lab GEODISC to properly setup your cartridge alignment. Then you need to confirm that your Anti-Skate and Stylus Force are set correctly. Once all of this has been done, then and only then, can make a an assessment of your LPs but not until then.


I certainly don't disagree with that, but I have played with all aspects of the cartridge alignment, and this is not only common to all my albums, but also two different TTs and cartridges. It was also my experience back in the 80s when I stopped listening to vinyl.

The linear velocity of the outer tracks is more than twice that of the inner tracks (probably more - I didn't measure it) - the linear velocity is proportional to the ratio of the radius of the grooves the needle is tracking.

There is no way for the fidelity to be the same on the outer and inner tracks because of the huge difference in the linear velocity of the stylus. Not to say it should be audible in all cases (although it is to me), but there's a reason we don't use 16 RPM LPs.

Author:  Mr Ed [ 09 May 2010, 06:47 ]
Post subject:  Re: Vinyl - the good and the bad

sampleaccurate wrote:
I certainly don't disagree with that, but I have played with all aspects of the cartridge alignment, and this is not only common to all my albums, but also two different TTs and cartridges. It was also my experience back in the 80s when I stopped listening to vinyl.

The linear velocity of the outer tracks is more than twice that of the inner tracks (probably more - I didn't measure it) - the linear velocity is proportional to the ratio of the radius of the grooves the needle is tracking.

There is no way for the fidelity to be the same on the outer and inner tracks because of the huge difference in the linear velocity of the stylus. Not to say it should be audible in all cases (although it is to me), but there's a reason we don't use 16 RPM LPs.

You are out on the fringe here, LPs are cut in the same way they are played, Then a mold is made from the master for pressing. There is no change in the quality of the information on the LP from outer track to inner track with respect to velocity. What ever you were using for play back, no matter how highly held on the audio food chain, was either crap or it was set up wrong. Then again, if the cd were to read from outside in I suppose it would sound more like real music to me do to time vrs information stream velocity.
Ed

Author:  sampleaccurate [ 11 May 2010, 09:44 ]
Post subject:  Re: Vinyl - the good and the bad

Mr Ed wrote:
There is no change in the quality of the information on the LP from outer track to inner track with respect to velocity.

The angular velocity of vinyl is constant - the linear velocity of the stylus with respect to the record surface is proportional to the radius of the groove being played. This is one of the major technical problems with vinyl and one of the reasons cutting discs is an art. Higher linear velocity means MORE INFORMATION, and to my ears less distortion and improved high frequency response across every TT, cartridge and album I've ever owned or used.

BTW CD's have a constant data rate. The CD changes it's angular velocity to keep the data rate the same, or at least the head only reads the data at a fixed rate (on average - the data is buffered), UNLIKE vinyl disks which aren't sophisticated enough to maintain consistent fidelity over the entire playing surface. That's a fact. Whether it's audible to the average listener is up for debate, but it's a fact less information is recorded on the inner tracks than the outer. If you just think about it and carry it to the extreme, if what you say is true, the LP could spin at 1 prm and hold 20 hours of music per side. Not gonna work.
Maybe I am on the fringe, but if I hear distortion and it's universal to all albums it is what it is.

Author:  sampleaccurate [ 11 May 2010, 22:25 ]
Post subject:  Re: What is your vinyl source?

sampleaccurate wrote:
Mr Ed wrote:
There is no change in the quality of the information on the LP from outer track to inner track with respect to velocity.

The angular velocity of vinyl is constant - the linear velocity of the stylus with respect to the record surface is proportional to the radius of the groove being played. This is one of the major technical problems with vinyl and one of the reasons cutting discs is an art. Higher linear velocity means MORE INFORMATION, and to my ears less distortion and improved high frequency response across every TT, cartridge and album I've ever owned or used.

BTW CD's have a constant data rate. The CD changes it's angular velocity to keep the data rate the same, or at least the head only reads the data at a fixed rate (on average - the data is buffered), UNLIKE vinyl disks which aren't sophisticated enough to maintain consistent fidelity over the entire playing surface. That's a fact. Whether it's audible to the average listener is up for debate, but it's a fact less information is recorded on the inner tracks than the outer. If you just think about it and carry it to the extreme, if what you say is true, the LP could spin at 1 prm and hold 20 hours of music per side. Not gonna work.
Maybe I am on the fringe, but if I hear distortion and it's universal to all albums it is what it is.


Sorry to get OT but it slowly drifted. Thanks for moving this.

Please notice I never said that vinyl was incapable of sounding good on the inner tracks, only that I haven't had that experience. If you have I envy you, and that's said without sarcasm. I truly wish I could get the inside tracks on my LPs to sound good, and it's certainly possible it's my TT and cartridge. I haven't given up yet and I'd try any suggestions.

It's also my observation that the inner tracks are wider given the same song length. It's speculation, but my guess would be that the amplitude of the groove modulation would need to be increased as the linear velocity dropped to compensate for what would otherwise be a loss in volume. There are probably other forms of compensation that are applied as the speed changes and with it the charactersitics of the response of the vinyl disc to attempt to maintain fidelity, but compensation can only do so much.

Perhaps it takes a very high quality cartridge to properly play back the lower speed inner tracks with the higher modulation. I don't know. All I know is I haven't found a TT that will do the job (yet).

Author:  Gio [ 21 Aug 2010, 17:05 ]
Post subject:  Wet Record Playing

Found this article on the topic of Wet Record Playing: "Does a record suffer from wet playing?" There was no mention of a author or a publication source for the article.
Attachment:
Does a record suffer from wet playing.jpg
Source: http://itishifi.blogspot.com/2010/08/we ... aying.html

Author:  Gio [ 23 Aug 2010, 22:49 ]
Post subject:  Re: What is your vinyl source?

sampleaccurate wrote:
I found some info on a forum about cleaning vinyl LPs that was interesting.

Polyvinyl acrylate based wood glue, or PVA glue, better known as carpenters wood glue.

You cover the record surface, let it dry until it can be peeled off (don't leave it on too long) and peel it off. Supposedly it removes particles of dirt that are stuck or adhering to the grooves that other methods don't, and it's CHEAP AND EASY.


While reading retrothing I came across this video. Basically the same idea as carpenters glue. You can fast forward the video to 40 seconds.


Author:  cheap-Jack [ 25 Aug 2010, 14:28 ]
Post subject:  Re: Vinyl - the good and the bad

Gio wrote:
"Does a record suffer from wet playing?"

Hi.

It is a big NADA for me. I've played wet some 6 years back when I found dry play was a pain to get rid of the random static noises. Thanks goodness, so far so good.

NO cartridge corrosion at all.as suggested in that unauthored article per yr link. Maybe the same MM cartridge I've been using since day one is a too cheap no-name to show any corrosion.

Subjectively, I find wet play gives me much more fluidity, air & livelike in the music vs dry play. Now I just can't go back to dry play any more musically.

What I use is only distilled water, with NO chemical additives. The distilled water I use to rinse the recyled LPs (97% of my muit-hundred collection) first time before playing them is my homebrew. Same distilled water to wet play them. I simply hand wipe them dry with a lint-free cloth before I sleeve them back. So the LPs are still somewhat moist inside their jackets.

One thing I find is: I hardly find any dust adhered to the LPs everytime I pull them out to play them next time. Maybe the residual moisture keeps the dust away.

So everytime I play, I hardly need to use a dust brush. No static at all - killed the water inside the grooves. No rocket science!

If you ask me my impression in wet play, my hands-on experience is :thumbsup:

c-J

PS: IMO, the article tried to 'blind' the readers with science. But I am not impressed as what it said there is none of my experience since day one.6 years back. If I read between the lines, I'd find it paving the way for LP machine cleaning. Some bigtime business to empty the wallets of those LP lovers.

Author:  Gio [ 28 Aug 2010, 16:02 ]
Post subject:  Re: Vinyl - the good and the bad

cheap-Jack wrote:
What I use is only distilled water, with NO chemical additives.

For wet play that sounds very important but the article also recommend some alcohol.
Cheers

Author:  cheap-Jack [ 30 Aug 2010, 09:49 ]
Post subject:  Re: Vinyl - the good and the bad

Gio wrote:
the article also recommend some alcohol

Hi.

The reason per unauthored article for adding "20% - 25% pure ethyl alcohol" is to "lower the surface tension of the liquid & hasten evaporation". & "the liqud film on the surface of the record be as thin as possible".

When I find out wet play does not affect any vinlys nor my phono cartridge, whatever the author recommended basing on whatever scientic reasoning is no longer relevant.

So alcohol is NO longer needed. Don't overlook any chemical additives are alien material which may leave residues inside the grooves. Such in-groove foreign materials only affect the tiny stylus tip tracking. That's is my logic not using any chemicals. What can be more neutral, purer & harmless than distilled water :confused:

Try it out wet & I bet you will find yr music sound more fluid & live !

Pure (distilled) H2O can't affect any vinly. This is common sense. Whatever scientifc excuses used in that article is, IMO, scare tactic. Either the unanmed author is some typical armchair critic without actually trying wet play before commenting. Or worse still, there may be some hidden agenda behind it.

c-J
PS: of course, the vinlys should be dried up immediately after use.

Page 6 of 6 All times are UTC - 6 hours [ DST ]
Powered by phpBB® Forum Software © phpBB Group
http://www.phpbb.com/