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PostPosted: 21 Apr 2010, 19:09 
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The glue is on the record. :smoking:

Rinsing well with distilled water didn't do much to stop the crackles, although I didn't try to play it wet. The record looks new, but the noise if deafening.

Can't wait to peel it off!

After that I'll play the other side wet and compare.

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PostPosted: 22 Apr 2010, 11:33 
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Done deal. I was going to take pics but it looked no different than what's already on the web.

I have one heck of a clean record now, but, unfortunatley most of the surface noise is still there.

Then I tried playing it wet. Sounded the same - lots of pops and crackles.

The record looks new, has no visible scratches, yet pops and crackles.

I've concluded that either

1) The vinyl and/or pressing is poor quality, or
2) The record has "dried out" over the last 30 years and the vinly is shrinking and cracking on a microscopic level.

I can't think of anything else other than #2 caused by chemical damage.

It does appear that the glue method works well to clean a record, but don't expect miracles.

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PostPosted: 23 Apr 2010, 07:37 
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sampleaccurate wrote:
Done deal. I was going to take pics but it looked no different than what's already on the web.

I have one heck of a clean record now, but, unfortunatley most of the surface noise is still there.

Then I tried playing it wet. Sounded the same - lots of pops and crackles.

The record looks new, has no visible scratches, yet pops and crackles.

I've concluded that either

1) The vinyl and/or pressing is poor quality, or
2) The record has "dried out" over the last 30 years and the vinly is shrinking and cracking on a microscopic level.

I can't think of anything else other than #2 caused by chemical damage.

It does appear that the glue method works well to clean a record, but don't expect miracles.

I have never tried the glue method. I have always been scared, I also have not tried steam, but I may soon.
I find it interesting you still have noise, but of coarse the record condition is subjective at best. It took me a little bit to learn how to pick good used vinyl. Every now and then I still get one that does not clean up as well as I would like.
Some times the noise it from static,but you would need to describe it a little more. The static ones are more random, dirt is fairly consistent. A carbon fiber brush will help get rid of static, I use one every play, and vacuum them only once or twice after getting them and use the brush after cleaning.
You are in Vegas? if you want to spend a couple bucks on postage, mail it to me and I will clean it with my record vac and return it. It would and interesting test :)
cheers
Ed


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PostPosted: 23 Apr 2010, 09:49 
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sampleaccurate wrote:
Sounded the same - lots of pops and crackles.

Hi.
Since I never encounter such consistent "pops & crackles" even with my old old recycles, I can only assume that those are inivisible damage due to bad pressing or whatever.
sampleaccurate wrote:
unfortunatley most of the surface noise is still there

Again, I very very seldom get such surface noise even with my old old pressings, I would assume either there is too much gain or incorrect RIAA correction in yr phono amp which boosts up HF noise too much.

c-J

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PostPosted: 23 Apr 2010, 13:13 
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cheap-Jack wrote:
sampleaccurate wrote:
Sounded the same - lots of pops and crackles.

Since I never encounter such consistent "pops & crackles" even with my old old recycles, I can only assume that those are inivisible damage due to bad pressing or whatever.
sampleaccurate wrote:
unfortunatley most of the surface noise is still there

Again, I very very seldom get such surface noise even with my old old pressings, I would assume either there is too much gain or incorrect RIAA correction in yr phono amp which boosts up HF noise too much.

I think it's the pressing or recycled vinyl. Other albums aren't as bad. I was hoping to save this one but unfortunately it didn't work.

It was cool to try though. I'll bet if you did this carefully you could "copy" a record. The glue is a negative of the album. If you could somehow pour glue onto the glue negative and peel it off you'd have a new positive.

When the glue comes off it FEELS like vinyl. It looks like a record only it's not black and it's "sloppy". It appears under close observation to have captured the detail of the grooves extremely well. It feels like it's hard enough to play. I doubt it would sound that great but I'm betting it could be done, not that anyone would want to.

I'm also convinced it DID clean the record without damage. Unfortunatley dirt wasn't the problem. Nor was static since the wet play didn't help either.

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PostPosted: 26 Apr 2010, 15:30 
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More vinyl experiences:

First off, the glue WARPED THE RECORD!!! I've read this goes away, but I'm not so sure. It developed 24 to 48 hrs AFTER the glue was removed. Go figure. I don't recommend this for irreplacable records. I tried it on a 99 cent LP so no harm done.

As far as the poor sound, it was the cartridge. I bought a second turntable with a 1/2" mount and I put on a new Ortofon OM 5 E cartridge.

WOW!!! :P

I'm finally getting some clean detailed highs. Actually I'm quite surprised and pleased. I'm getting better sound out of vinyl than I ever did before in my life. CDs came out when I was too young to own a nice TT, and the TT I had sounded awful. After hearing CDs I never looked back - until now.

The highs on some of these albums are silky smooth and highly detailed. The other cartridge (with a new stylus) sounds terrible and has distortion that's not present with the Ortofon.

My ultimate solution for listening to vinyl is (sacralige to some I know) to digitize the records with a 24 bit 96 kHz A/D and edit out the pops manually. That's the only issue I'm still having - surface noise. It's not noticable during the loud passages but the low level passages have a lot of crackles.

Thanks to those who insisted there was something there worth finding. I found it! :smoking:

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PostPosted: 27 Apr 2010, 13:56 
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This gets better and better. I was helping my brother move some stuff to a new house he bought and there was a box marked "do not stack, store cold". It was heavy. I asked him what it was and he said ALBUMS!!!

Turns out he saved over 100 albums from when we were kids. All the stuff I grew up with. They've been stored for over 25 years and they're in just as good a shape as the day they were boxed.

After listening to about 20 of them I've drawn some more conclusions. One thing is that the surface noise is HIGHLY VARIABLE and apparently dependent on the quality of the vinyl and the pressing.

I have one album from 1961 that is almost DEAD QUIET. It's Carlos Montoya performing Malagueña on the clasical guitar. It was pressed by RCA Victor using something called "Miracle Surface 317X". They claim that it reduces surface noise and static drastically, and IT DOES!!! This album BLOWS AWAY almost every other album in terms of noise. I don't know what happened to this technology but apparently it was abandoned in favor of a cheaper surface that's much noisier.

Another thing I noticed is that some of the albums sound better than CDs during passages that are relatively low in volume. This is where CDs fail because of quantization distortion. The LPs are free of any quantization and the difference is noticable to my ears. HOWEVER, during the very loud passages I'm getting more distortion on the LPs than the CDs. This could be my cartridge or a misalignment problem, but I suspect the distortion is carved into the grooves, although I could be wrong.

So it's a mixed bag. Some albums sound great and surpass the the CD of the same master recording, and some fall far short. Most have surface noise that can't be eliminated, but I've found that after listening for awhile that you can tune out the pops and listen to the music without distraction. It took a bit of listening but I can now deal with a few crackles and pops.

Overall I'm impressed by vinyl.

I WAS WRONG about the capability of LPs, never having owned a decent TT and catridge before CDs came out. I now have a new sound source and over 100 LPs to play. Talk about a coincidence.

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PostPosted: 29 Apr 2010, 09:00 
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sampleaccurate wrote:
some of the albums sound better. CDs fail because of quantization distortion. The LPs are free of any quantization and the difference is noticable to my ears.

sampleaccurate wrote:
Overall I'm impressed by vinyl.
I WAS WRONG about the capability of LPs, never having owned a decent TT and catridge before CDs came out. I now have a new sound source and over 100 LPs to play. Talk about a coincidence


Hi Stephen.

Very glad you share my experience - Analogue still beats digital sonically. Being-there & musical
emotion that digial fails to deliver like analogue.

Given vinyls treated properly & tonearm/cartridge aligned right, LPs can sound superb. Nothing is perfect, surface noise is inherent with analogue sources, e.g. vinyls & tapes. But given proper treatment, such defects are manageable & forgivable in light of the musicality LP/tape deliver.

c-J

PS: Tape is another excellent music source in line iwth vinyl. Much easier to handle than LPs!!!
I recorded most of my hundreds music cassette tapes from the radio & I love the music bigtime.

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PostPosted: 30 Apr 2010, 17:23 
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cheap-Jack wrote:
sampleaccurate wrote:
some of the albums sound better. CDs fail because of quantization distortion. The LPs are free of any quantization and the difference is noticable to my ears.

sampleaccurate wrote:
Overall I'm impressed by vinyl.
I WAS WRONG about the capability of LPs, never having owned a decent TT and catridge before CDs came out. I now have a new sound source and over 100 LPs to play. Talk about a coincidence

Very glad you share my experience - Analogue still beats digital sonically. Being-there & musical
emotion that digial fails to deliver like analogue.

Given vinyls treated properly & tonearm/cartridge aligned right, LPs can sound superb. Nothing is perfect, surface noise is inherent with analogue sources, e.g. vinyls & tapes. But given proper treatment, such defects are manageable & forgivable in light of the musicality LP/tape deliver.

PS: Tape is another excellent music source in line iwth vinyl. Much easier to handle than LPs!!!
I recorded most of my hundreds music cassette tapes from the radio & I love the music bigtime.

Although LPs definitely CAN sound better than CDs, many do not, especially on the inner tracks. Again, perhaps my cartridge or alignment is at fault, but the outer tracks on many albums have pristine detail in the highs and no perceptible distortion. The inner tracks are distorted on all my albums - every last one.

But when it comes to the overall best in every category to my ears, DIGITAL SACDs are the winner along with 24 bit recordings processed through quality DACs. The sound is warm, detailed, transparent, and free of perceptible quantization distortion and the "brittle" sound of CDs. It sounds analogue.

The secret to digital recording is no secret. If you take enough data points the signal can be reconverted to the analog domain with as much detail as you wish to preserve. 16 bit CDs do not record the data at a high enough resolution to reproduce the sound as accurately as our ears can detect.

The difference between CDs and SACDs or 24 bit recordings is about analogous to the difference between standard and HD TV. SACDs are like 1080p. Vinly maxes out at 720p, and CDs give a clear 408i.

That's my take on it after a lot of listening and comparing.

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PostPosted: 06 May 2010, 19:12 
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sampleaccurate wrote:
Although LPs definitely CAN sound better than CDs, many do not, especially on the inner tracks. Again, perhaps my cartridge or alignment is at fault, but the outer tracks on many albums have pristine detail in the highs and no perceptible distortion. The inner tracks are distorted on all my albums - every last one.

This should not be the case at all. Your setup has to be way off. Try a Mobile Fidelity Sound Lab GEODISC to properly setup your cartridge alignment. Then you need to confirm that your Anti-Skate and Stylus Force are set correctly. Once all of this has been done, then and only then, can make a an assessment of your LPs but not until then.

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Cheers, Alan
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Denon POA 2200 | Bottlehead Quickie with PJCCS | Integra CDC 3.1 | SOTA Sapphire-RG301-Grado Gold 1 | Soundwave Soliloquy Series I


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