DIY Audio Projects Forum
 NEW  Matt presents bias and operation data for the 6V6 tube in SE operation - 6V6 Single-Ended (SE) Ultra Linear (UL) Bias Optimization.

DIY Audio Projects Forum

Welcome to the DIY Audio Projects Message Forum. Use these forums to discuss Hi-Fi audio and to share your DIY Audio Projects. Registration is free and required to post messages and view the file attachments. Registration will only take a minute and registered users do not see any advertisements. After you have completed the online registration process, check your email (including spam/junk folder) for the verification email to activate your account. New members are under moderation - so your posts will not be visible until approved by a moderator. See the Read Me 1st, Forum RULES and Forum FAQ to get started on the forum.

It is currently 15 Sep 2019, 03:55

All times are UTC - 6 hours [ DST ]




Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 59 posts ]  Go to page Previous  1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6
Author Message
PostPosted: 07 May 2010, 09:59 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: 05 Jan 2010, 21:16
Posts: 680
Location: Las Vegas Nevada USA
booangler wrote:
sampleaccurate wrote:
Although LPs definitely CAN sound better than CDs, many do not, especially on the inner tracks. Again, perhaps my cartridge or alignment is at fault, but the outer tracks on many albums have pristine detail in the highs and no perceptible distortion. The inner tracks are distorted on all my albums - every last one.

This should not be the case at all. Your setup has to be way off. Try a Mobile Fidelity Sound Lab GEODISC to properly setup your cartridge alignment. Then you need to confirm that your Anti-Skate and Stylus Force are set correctly. Once all of this has been done, then and only then, can make a an assessment of your LPs but not until then.


I certainly don't disagree with that, but I have played with all aspects of the cartridge alignment, and this is not only common to all my albums, but also two different TTs and cartridges. It was also my experience back in the 80s when I stopped listening to vinyl.

The linear velocity of the outer tracks is more than twice that of the inner tracks (probably more - I didn't measure it) - the linear velocity is proportional to the ratio of the radius of the grooves the needle is tracking.

There is no way for the fidelity to be the same on the outer and inner tracks because of the huge difference in the linear velocity of the stylus. Not to say it should be audible in all cases (although it is to me), but there's a reason we don't use 16 RPM LPs.

_________________
Stephen


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: 09 May 2010, 06:47 
Offline

Joined: 03 Oct 2009, 19:04
Posts: 35
Location: Austin Texas
sampleaccurate wrote:
I certainly don't disagree with that, but I have played with all aspects of the cartridge alignment, and this is not only common to all my albums, but also two different TTs and cartridges. It was also my experience back in the 80s when I stopped listening to vinyl.

The linear velocity of the outer tracks is more than twice that of the inner tracks (probably more - I didn't measure it) - the linear velocity is proportional to the ratio of the radius of the grooves the needle is tracking.

There is no way for the fidelity to be the same on the outer and inner tracks because of the huge difference in the linear velocity of the stylus. Not to say it should be audible in all cases (although it is to me), but there's a reason we don't use 16 RPM LPs.

You are out on the fringe here, LPs are cut in the same way they are played, Then a mold is made from the master for pressing. There is no change in the quality of the information on the LP from outer track to inner track with respect to velocity. What ever you were using for play back, no matter how highly held on the audio food chain, was either crap or it was set up wrong. Then again, if the cd were to read from outside in I suppose it would sound more like real music to me do to time vrs information stream velocity.
Ed


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: 11 May 2010, 09:44 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: 05 Jan 2010, 21:16
Posts: 680
Location: Las Vegas Nevada USA
Mr Ed wrote:
There is no change in the quality of the information on the LP from outer track to inner track with respect to velocity.

The angular velocity of vinyl is constant - the linear velocity of the stylus with respect to the record surface is proportional to the radius of the groove being played. This is one of the major technical problems with vinyl and one of the reasons cutting discs is an art. Higher linear velocity means MORE INFORMATION, and to my ears less distortion and improved high frequency response across every TT, cartridge and album I've ever owned or used.

BTW CD's have a constant data rate. The CD changes it's angular velocity to keep the data rate the same, or at least the head only reads the data at a fixed rate (on average - the data is buffered), UNLIKE vinyl disks which aren't sophisticated enough to maintain consistent fidelity over the entire playing surface. That's a fact. Whether it's audible to the average listener is up for debate, but it's a fact less information is recorded on the inner tracks than the outer. If you just think about it and carry it to the extreme, if what you say is true, the LP could spin at 1 prm and hold 20 hours of music per side. Not gonna work.
Maybe I am on the fringe, but if I hear distortion and it's universal to all albums it is what it is.

_________________
Stephen


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: 11 May 2010, 22:25 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: 05 Jan 2010, 21:16
Posts: 680
Location: Las Vegas Nevada USA
sampleaccurate wrote:
Mr Ed wrote:
There is no change in the quality of the information on the LP from outer track to inner track with respect to velocity.

The angular velocity of vinyl is constant - the linear velocity of the stylus with respect to the record surface is proportional to the radius of the groove being played. This is one of the major technical problems with vinyl and one of the reasons cutting discs is an art. Higher linear velocity means MORE INFORMATION, and to my ears less distortion and improved high frequency response across every TT, cartridge and album I've ever owned or used.

BTW CD's have a constant data rate. The CD changes it's angular velocity to keep the data rate the same, or at least the head only reads the data at a fixed rate (on average - the data is buffered), UNLIKE vinyl disks which aren't sophisticated enough to maintain consistent fidelity over the entire playing surface. That's a fact. Whether it's audible to the average listener is up for debate, but it's a fact less information is recorded on the inner tracks than the outer. If you just think about it and carry it to the extreme, if what you say is true, the LP could spin at 1 prm and hold 20 hours of music per side. Not gonna work.
Maybe I am on the fringe, but if I hear distortion and it's universal to all albums it is what it is.


Sorry to get OT but it slowly drifted. Thanks for moving this.

Please notice I never said that vinyl was incapable of sounding good on the inner tracks, only that I haven't had that experience. If you have I envy you, and that's said without sarcasm. I truly wish I could get the inside tracks on my LPs to sound good, and it's certainly possible it's my TT and cartridge. I haven't given up yet and I'd try any suggestions.

It's also my observation that the inner tracks are wider given the same song length. It's speculation, but my guess would be that the amplitude of the groove modulation would need to be increased as the linear velocity dropped to compensate for what would otherwise be a loss in volume. There are probably other forms of compensation that are applied as the speed changes and with it the charactersitics of the response of the vinyl disc to attempt to maintain fidelity, but compensation can only do so much.

Perhaps it takes a very high quality cartridge to properly play back the lower speed inner tracks with the higher modulation. I don't know. All I know is I haven't found a TT that will do the job (yet).

_________________
Stephen


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Wet Record Playing
PostPosted: 21 Aug 2010, 17:05 
Offline
Editor
User avatar

Joined: 28 May 2008, 21:53
Posts: 4579
Location: Winnipeg, CANADA
Found this article on the topic of Wet Record Playing: "Does a record suffer from wet playing?" There was no mention of a author or a publication source for the article.
Attachment:
Does a record suffer from wet playing.jpg
Source: http://itishifi.blogspot.com/2010/08/we ... aying.html


This post has a file attachment. Please login or register to access it. Only Registered Members may view attached files.


_________________
[ DIY Mains AC Power Cable Cord ] - [ Gobo LM1875 Amp Kit ] - [ Tang Band D4-1 Horn Speaker Kit ] - [ Monoblock Push-Pull KT88 Tube Amp Kit ]


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: 23 Aug 2010, 22:49 
Offline
Editor
User avatar

Joined: 28 May 2008, 21:53
Posts: 4579
Location: Winnipeg, CANADA
sampleaccurate wrote:
I found some info on a forum about cleaning vinyl LPs that was interesting.

Polyvinyl acrylate based wood glue, or PVA glue, better known as carpenters wood glue.

You cover the record surface, let it dry until it can be peeled off (don't leave it on too long) and peel it off. Supposedly it removes particles of dirt that are stuck or adhering to the grooves that other methods don't, and it's CHEAP AND EASY.


While reading retrothing I came across this video. Basically the same idea as carpenters glue. You can fast forward the video to 40 seconds.


_________________
[ DIY Mains AC Power Cable Cord ] - [ Gobo LM1875 Amp Kit ] - [ Tang Band D4-1 Horn Speaker Kit ] - [ Monoblock Push-Pull KT88 Tube Amp Kit ]


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: 25 Aug 2010, 14:28 
Offline
Banned

Joined: 15 Mar 2010, 08:32
Posts: 487
Location: Canada
Gio wrote:
"Does a record suffer from wet playing?"

Hi.

It is a big NADA for me. I've played wet some 6 years back when I found dry play was a pain to get rid of the random static noises. Thanks goodness, so far so good.

NO cartridge corrosion at all.as suggested in that unauthored article per yr link. Maybe the same MM cartridge I've been using since day one is a too cheap no-name to show any corrosion.

Subjectively, I find wet play gives me much more fluidity, air & livelike in the music vs dry play. Now I just can't go back to dry play any more musically.

What I use is only distilled water, with NO chemical additives. The distilled water I use to rinse the recyled LPs (97% of my muit-hundred collection) first time before playing them is my homebrew. Same distilled water to wet play them. I simply hand wipe them dry with a lint-free cloth before I sleeve them back. So the LPs are still somewhat moist inside their jackets.

One thing I find is: I hardly find any dust adhered to the LPs everytime I pull them out to play them next time. Maybe the residual moisture keeps the dust away.

So everytime I play, I hardly need to use a dust brush. No static at all - killed the water inside the grooves. No rocket science!

If you ask me my impression in wet play, my hands-on experience is :thumbsup:

c-J

PS: IMO, the article tried to 'blind' the readers with science. But I am not impressed as what it said there is none of my experience since day one.6 years back. If I read between the lines, I'd find it paving the way for LP machine cleaning. Some bigtime business to empty the wallets of those LP lovers.

_________________
"If the facts don't fit the theory, change the facts" quoted Albert Einstein.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: 28 Aug 2010, 16:02 
Offline
Editor
User avatar

Joined: 28 May 2008, 21:53
Posts: 4579
Location: Winnipeg, CANADA
cheap-Jack wrote:
What I use is only distilled water, with NO chemical additives.

For wet play that sounds very important but the article also recommend some alcohol.
Cheers

_________________
[ DIY Mains AC Power Cable Cord ] - [ Gobo LM1875 Amp Kit ] - [ Tang Band D4-1 Horn Speaker Kit ] - [ Monoblock Push-Pull KT88 Tube Amp Kit ]


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: 30 Aug 2010, 09:49 
Offline
Banned

Joined: 15 Mar 2010, 08:32
Posts: 487
Location: Canada
Gio wrote:
the article also recommend some alcohol

Hi.

The reason per unauthored article for adding "20% - 25% pure ethyl alcohol" is to "lower the surface tension of the liquid & hasten evaporation". & "the liqud film on the surface of the record be as thin as possible".

When I find out wet play does not affect any vinlys nor my phono cartridge, whatever the author recommended basing on whatever scientic reasoning is no longer relevant.

So alcohol is NO longer needed. Don't overlook any chemical additives are alien material which may leave residues inside the grooves. Such in-groove foreign materials only affect the tiny stylus tip tracking. That's is my logic not using any chemicals. What can be more neutral, purer & harmless than distilled water :confused:

Try it out wet & I bet you will find yr music sound more fluid & live !

Pure (distilled) H2O can't affect any vinly. This is common sense. Whatever scientifc excuses used in that article is, IMO, scare tactic. Either the unanmed author is some typical armchair critic without actually trying wet play before commenting. Or worse still, there may be some hidden agenda behind it.

c-J
PS: of course, the vinlys should be dried up immediately after use.

_________________
"If the facts don't fit the theory, change the facts" quoted Albert Einstein.


Top
 Profile  
 
Display posts from previous:  Sort by  
Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 59 posts ]  Go to page Previous  1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6

All times are UTC - 6 hours [ DST ]


Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 2 guests


You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot post attachments in this forum

Jump to:  
DIY Tube Projects :: DIY Tube Amp Kits :: DIY Speaker Projects :: DIY Solid State Projects :: DIY IC / Op-amp Projects :: DIY Phono Projects :: DIY Cable Projects :: Hi-Fi Audio Schematics
© diyAudioProjects.com - Terms of Service - Privacy Policy