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PostPosted: 07 Apr 2010, 10:26 
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:cop: Split from: What is your vinyl source?

The frequency response of vinyl records may be degraded by frequent playback if the cartridge is set to track too heavily, or the stylus is not compliant enough to trace the high frequency grooves accurately, or the cartridge/tonearm is not properly aligned.

The RIAA has suggested the following acceptable losses: down to 20 kHz after one play, 18 kHz after three plays, 17 kHz after five, 16 kHz after eight, 14 kHz after fifteen, 13 kHz after twenty five, 10 kHz after thirty five, and 8 kHz after eighty plays. While this degradation is possible if the record is played on improperly set up equipment, many collectors of LPs report excellent sound quality on LPs played many more times when using care and high quality equipment. This rapid sound degradation is not usually typical on modern Hi-Fi equipment with a properly balanced tonearm and well balanced low-mass stylus.

10 kHz after 35 plays! I'm just starting to get into an album after 35 plays and half the bandwidth is gone from erosion of the fine details of the groove that represent the high frequencies.

To be fair, that was written a long time ago I'm sure, and it's stated that modern low mass low tracking weight cartridges and a good stylus will outperform these expectations.

However, it's been my experience, both directly and indirectly, that vinyl wears out when it's played. Maybe not as fast on a good TT as the RIAA "acceptable losses" above, but still, it wears out and the sound degrades after repeated playing.

If I do find some albums that sound good on my new turntable my intention is to immediately digitize them in a 24 bit / 96 kHz format for repeated listening. I can discern no difference between albums played on my current relatively cheap turntable and a 24 bit recording made from the album. I suspect the same will hold true for my new cartridge and TT with some 180g virgin vinyl, but I'll withold judgement until I try it.

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PostPosted: 07 Apr 2010, 15:16 
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sampleaccurate wrote:
I suspect the same will hold true for my new cartridge and TT with some 180g virgin vinyl, but I'll withold judgement until I try it.

Hi.

NO sweat, bud!.

Don't believe all published in those information searching machines, e.g. Wikipedia ,etc etc. Likewise, I don't believe whatever ranking/rating on products posted by those armchair critics in those consumer reports.

What Wiki published contradicts my years' hands-on experience with vinyls. FYI, 99% of the hundreds of hundreds stereo LPs I own are decades old & recyled from thrift stores for a buck a pop. Nearly all of them are mint & sound from decent to supberb :thumbsup: . If what Wiki posted on the performance durability of vinyls due to wear-and-tear were a bit close to be true or correct,
all my vinyls got to be thrown out of the window years back. But I treasure them like jewels as they are timeless & inavailable any more.

Just last nite, I invited an ex-workmate of mine for a music session for the first time in my home. I first played CDs & then followed by LPs. Immediately he told me LPs sound so much better than CDs..
He asked me to play "Smoke gets in your eyes", a stereo soundtrack of The Platters LP (orginal
Mercury 1960 release) which he got it in CD. He dropped his jaw & said this old old Mercury vinyl recording.blew his CD away.

Try it first before you ever panick.

c-J

PS:My definition of superb :thumbsup: is: transparent, dynamic, airy, livelike soundstaging & precise imaging.

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PostPosted: 07 Apr 2010, 15:18 
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Mr Ed wrote:
mounted in slate and native Texas limestone.

HI Ed.

How heavy is the limestone base?

c-J

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PostPosted: 07 Apr 2010, 19:25 
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Mr Ed wrote:
mounted in slate and native Texas limestone.

cheap-Jack wrote:
How heavy is the limestone base?

I weighed the limestone piece and forgot to wright it down...doh! I have another slab I could put on the scale if you like.
I never gave up on my vinyl, and only started buying cd when it was the only option. :D

sampleaccurate,
If you have a half decent stylus and a normal tracking weight under 4 grams, a record will last decades with one stipulation. If you dont play it more that once in a 24 hr period. Meaning dont play it over and over endlessly like when we were kids trying to learn the song.
The vinyl in the grooves will deform a slight amount as the stylus tracks across it, but is natural elasticity will allow this to occur then return to shape again, unless distorted repeatedly before being allowed to spring back to shape.
Hope you enjoy and keep playing your records, they are only limited by the play back system.

Ed


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PostPosted: 08 Apr 2010, 00:39 
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sampleaccurate wrote:
I suspect the same will hold true for my new cartridge and TT with some 180g virgin vinyl, but I'll withold judgement until I try it.

cheap-Jack wrote:
Don't believe all published in those information searching machines, e.g. Wikipedia ,etc etc. Likewise, I don't believe whatever ranking/rating on products posted by those armchair critics in those consumer reports.

What Wiki published contradicts my years' hands-on experience with vinyls. FYI, 99% of the hundreds of hundreds stereo LPs I own are decades old & recyled from thrift stores for a buck a pop. Nearly all of them are mint & sound from decent to supberb :thumbsup: . If what Wiki posted on the performance durability of vinyls due to wear-and-tear were a bit close to be true or correct,
all my vinyls got to be thrown out of the window years back. But I treasure them like jewels as they are timeless & inavailable any more.

Just last nite, I invited an ex-workmate of mine for a music session for the first time in my home. I first played CDs & then followed by LPs. Immediately he told me LPs sound so much better than CDs..
He asked me to play "Smoke gets in your eyes", a stereo soundtrack of The Platters LP (orginal
Mercury 1960 release) which he got it in CD. He dropped his jaw & said this old old Mercury vinyl recording.blew his CD away.

Try it first before you ever panick.

c-J

PS:My definition of superb :thumbsup: is: transparent, dynamic, airy, livelike soundstaging & precise imaging.

I didn't say I believed it, just that there is SOME amount of degradation over time. It depends on a number of factors, most importantly the stylus, its alignment and the tracking weight.

My experience has been almost exclusively with mass produced albums from the late 70s and early 80s. Without exception I played out the ones I liked the best until they were so distorted I had to go buy a new ones. Even new they had pops and scratches, and many had bad distortion that at the time I didn't realize wasn't on the master tape that created the LP.

The RIAA preamp I bought looks nice. It's dead quiet and the response extends out to 200kHz (yep, that's two zeros). Now all I need is my new cartridge, turntable and a stack of albums all of which are on the way. Just waiting for the UPS man. I'm having trouble finding a "test" disk. I want to set up the cartridge properly and I've done it before (a LONG time ago) but i used a test LP to help.

I'm not drawing any more conclusions about anything until I hear a lot of albums and do a lot of comparing. BTW, I was speaking of a good digital recording of the record sounding like the record, not that my records will degrade that fast. It's a lot easier to cue up a 24 bit file on my computer than put on an album.

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PostPosted: 08 Apr 2010, 09:58 
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sampleaccurate wrote:
there is SOME amount of degradation over time

HI.

Yes, there bound to be degration over time. This is wear-and-tear. This is physics. Given proper handling, any vinyl can last decades easily as the degration is so gentle & gradual for our ears to detect it. I say so simply because my favourite LPs wihich I play so often, are all decades old since I own them after I started playing vinyl only a few years back. Yet my very picky ears can't tell any degration since day one I own them.

Likewise, we get aging everyDAY - but so gradually that we don't even know. Do I have to worry if I could still enjoy any music with my hearing aging everyday??? I don't. I bet you we human beings age way faster than any vinyls.

sampleaccurate wrote:
the response extends out to 200kHz

How do you know? You read it from its published specs or you actaully measured it?

sampleaccurate wrote:
IIt's a lot easier to cue up a 24 bit file on my computer than put on an album.

Yes, the only bad thing about playing vinly is it is sorta kinda a pain to go thru the 'hassle' or inconvience to get the music going vs CD. But the music gratification we can get from a decently working LP player is very justifiable to me, to say the least.

I am still yet to be convinced that the 24bit dub from a vinyl can sound muscially at par with the vinyl.
I have a few LP of in-concert live classical music performances with digitally mastered soundtracks.
Yes, they are all SO dead quiet whenever there is music intervals that they sound unreal.

c-J

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PostPosted: 08 Apr 2010, 10:08 
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Mr Ed wrote:
I have another slab I could put on the scale if you like.

HI Ed.

Yes, please let me know how heavy it is. I don't need up to decimal pound. Would it be 50lb or 100lb or so?

There is some good reason for my asking you such 'trivial' sounding question.

c-J

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PostPosted: 08 Apr 2010, 16:13 
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cheap-Jack wrote:
Yes, please let me know how heavy it is. I don't need up to decimal pound. Would it be 50lb or 100lb or so?

There is some good reason for my asking you such 'trivial' sounding question.

The slab will have a "resonant frequency" depending on the weight and a huge number of other factors. Any resonance will be dependent on not only the weight but the shape and thickness of the slab, as well as the type and density of the particular sample of marble, etc.

However, the more massive an object, the less susceptible to resonance it will be with a given excitation frequency and force. Unless there is some serious direct coupling of vibration through the floor and the music is really loud with the speakers directly coupled to the floor, a heavy slab should work well as an isolation device. It all boils down to the principle of inertia. The more massive an object is the harder it is to move, and vibration is a form of movement. It would take a lot of energy to induce enough vibration in a massive slab of marble to cause audible effects. I like it. I plan something similar - a heavy 3 inch thick particle board laminate with foam rubber between 1" particle boards. Heavy as hell with no resonance.

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PostPosted: 08 Apr 2010, 20:43 
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CJ
The limestone piece is about 25 lbs 1 1/8th inch, the upper slate 3/4 inch is about 10 and the lower 3/4 inch about 20, so total roughly 50 plus pounds.
I would caution against granite or marble, as they are of a different structural nature and will ring. not good for use as a plinth. Birch ply and particle board will work well, no need for the foam rubber as it may not do what you think, but try and see. You can sipply glue the layers together and have good plinth. I do think the slate will put you on another level though. It is not to hard to work, but a little messier that wood. What turntable are going to use?
Cheers
Ed


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PostPosted: 12 Apr 2010, 10:33 
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Mr Ed wrote:
as a plinth. Birch ply and particle board will work well,

Mr Ed wrote:
The limestone piece is about 25 lbs 1 1/8th inch, the upper slate 3/4 inch is about 10 and the lower 3/4 inch about 20, so total roughly 50 plus pounds.

HI Ed.

I go for yr first statement. TT plinth should be wood.
But the image you posted shows yr TT plinth is built of 3 marble like stone slats???

c-J

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